The herd grew, slowly at first, but that growth became exponential. Not nature. Take away the welfare animal damage checks take away the cheap $1.35 per month per cow grazing fee open up, once and for all the landlocked public land that the welfare ranchers have been exclusively using for pennies to the acre hand out more general licenses eliminate the outfitters in this state who get to play with free inventory supplied by the game and fish. Units 56, 58, and 59 all are considered late season trophy hunts. Lets Hunt Some Turkey. I for one would help lower the herd number. Oh, thats right.man thinks hes better than Mother Nature! "He was an outstanding cowman as well as being very loyal and devoted to the Hunt family," said Hunt. We can fix all the issues and all can win. Here they have a problem with elk and what eats elk? This is a great first-time Wyoming adventure. Its not the same range it was 20 years ago, far more open range, far fewer trees and few trees coming back. Plus, it looks like the president of the Wyoming Outfitters is putting his two cents in regarding the terrorist elk. Sisco D Ranch. You created your own problem. Its a racket!!! Its really pretty simple! Issues with overpopulated elk, of course, arent restricted to Turtle Rock Ranch. Here easy fix. Today there is no way at age 73 can I evan think of paying the high cost of license and high cost of an outfitter. Several commentors have advanced the idea of not paying the landowners for damages caused by publicly owned ungulates and predators if they dont allow the public to hunt on their private land. Jeff recommended that I apply in Wyoming for a unit 7 type 1 elk tag, and if I drew, he recommended that I go hunting with Dax McCarty and Wagonhound Outfitters located outside of Douglas, Wyoming. Home. In addition the outfitters rules regulations and fees need to be restructured and improved. The state does not care about locals, just big money. I am an absolute supporter of both our ranchers and sportsman alike but I am sorry if you are not going to allow public hunting without fees then you dont receive hay or fence subsidies is a simple as that! (Wyoming Game and Fish Department/Courtesy). SY GILILLAND, president of the Wyoming Outfitters and Guides Association, described overpopulated elk as terrorists destroying some ranches that his guides lead clients on. I think the Elk and the wolves are inseparable. Hmmm, lets see.why are we killing wolves when their prey is out of control? Discover the facilities and accommodations that we offer and the different ways we cater to our clients during huntings trips. An area I used to hunt was burned 30 +/- years ago and the number of elk in the area grew exponentially. You cant solve a problem with the same thinking that created it. Sometime in the late 90s, early 2000s, there was certainly a recognition that elk numbers really took off, Binfet said. You must subscribe to the old notion that the rancher owes nothing, yet is owed everything, Pretty simple. Might be nice to roll some facts in the mix especially for those of you unfamiliar with the area. may be downloaded there. They are the locals that actually hunt to help feed their families. Im new to Wyoming and whats interesting is I hear two stories. Home; What is CBD? Same is true in Yellowstone, I think. These bulls are roaming freely within a 10,000-acre ranch. A Wyoming Game and Fish Department staffer captured this aerial photo of a herd of 1,700 elk in the Laramie Mountains in 2014. And believe me it is not only Elk, Ive seen huge bunches of deer in hayfields. Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Built back in 1929, The Snake River Ranch is the largest deeded ranch in Jackson Hole. Spring Hotel (Any Weapon) Fall Camp (Archery) 5. Her . * No personal attacks, profanity, discriminatory language or threats. In short the newer methods and products for hunting has and is training the animals to group more often and easier. Wolves worked. . The fast and nimble elk or the slow and hefty domestic cattle?! Thats not the prevailing viewpoint, however. ft. With over 33,144+/- deeded acres and 54,373+/- leased acres located within the best of Wyoming's wide-open spaces. Our location in central Wyoming gives us access to some of the best hunting in the state. If youre going to close off hunting to everyone except those guided by outfitters then stfu about the elk on your land. Partly, that emphasis is because there are a limited number of hunters willing to fork over as much as $12,000 to $16,000 for five days of bull elk hunting. So Now, ranchers are complaining because the elk are eating their pastures and public land fodder. I find this article very interesting being on the heels of corner hopping charges on hunters being conservitive and respectful of land and laws. with the help of the new elites moving in. 2 Year Old Buffalo Bulls (Private Land Utah) - @ $3,400 - $3,800 Deposit $1000. Same ole same ole. 6) rancher outfits the wildlife, profiting handsomely off the back of the taxpayers and sportsman Address: 500 W. Walnut St., Rawlins, Wyoming. 5.) So no, they havent paid for the land being used and should get their damn cattle off public lands. The Chase family, friends, employees, and clients now hunt the NX bar. We are located in the Laramie Mountain Range, 30 miles West of Wheatland, Wyoming. Also I know enough people who would jump at the chance to kill an elk for the meat. 136,733 ratings12,545 reviews. Wyoming is famous for big game but also is one of the most sought after areas for Waterfowl hunting. Since we control the hunting on 100% of the 300,000 acre ranch we are able to create quality hunts dreams are made of! Please check the availability page. I think if they allowed free access on their property and the Wyoming division of wildlife would generate more tags there wouldnt be a problem. Healthy wolf packs will catalyze healthier Elk herds and balance the herd count nicely. Wolves took care of that high elk numbers every were 20,000 elk to 4 ,000 elk in 2020 in the Jackson hole in Yellowstone. Elk were here first, brucellosis came from cattle. In 1920 the Fee ranch, where he had worked 10 years earlier, was taken over by Holly Hunt. Quit paying the ranchers. At any given one time, there are more elk on our property than we own cattle, Grant said from his kitchen table in mid-April. About Dosing; CBD is for Pets Too! I dont believe turtle ranch and other ranches are only making a few thousand dollars on hunts. If your running your own guide services, your managing your own elk herd. The hunt you have dreaming about can become a reality at the Werner Ranch. We are located in the Laramie Mountain Range, 30 miles West of Wheatland, Wyoming. Our total hay crop is usually around 800 tons of hay, Grant said, and with [Game and Fishs] measurement technique, were losing at least 200, sometimes up to 270 tons of hay to elk. Thats not to say Wagonhound Ranch-outfitted elk hunters only kill a few animals. Forest Service Permit: POW446. We are best known for being home to some of the best elk hunting in North America. Weve turned a species loose on them that is destroying their way of life, and we did it without asking them., Elk are terrorists? I personally am a meet hunter and a non resident to wy and I have held back from paying high priced non resident fees because the areas that are public are way over hunted and I do not have the extra $12k laying around to spend every year on a guided hunt! The success rates for mule deer on this hunt is 50%. Its not cheap, he said. Hunters and ranchers both being difficult , disrespectful and down right mean. Hunted the Snowy Range. Elk are creatures of habit. I think there is a simple fix. The state agency reimbursed them more than $70,000. Just the same as the Turtle Rock ranch. Its a tough area to draw a tag in. Tags are over $800 for a slim chance of getting an Elk. The G&F and Outfitters are the only animal business I know that make money form animals they do not feed or provide fencing and other costs related to raising livestock or wild life. Locals can hardly get licenses. This funding and program could leverage all sorts of federal/state money and programs to benefit participating landowners. In Wisconsin, wolves have decimated the deer herd in the north. People killed off all the predators that should be there and wants you the same now. You're as obsessed with the facts as we are! Goodreads Choice Award. 512-966-2735 Email Us. The General Hunting and Fishing information hotline is (307) 777-4600. Make a donation today and help us keep digging. It doesnt take a rocket science to know that the cattle up on the range and in the mountains have pushed the elk onto the private lands. 5) rancher cries about all the elk yet, when the neighbor kid asks for permission to hunt, nope is all they get 2.) Be carefull what you wish for. Deer and Antelope application deadline is March 31st. Want to join the discussion? We will spend one day setting up the camp and showing you . This system is working very well and the public is paying to feed the publicly owned horses. Being a licensed Wyoming outfitter specializing in fully guided elk hunting, whitetail deer hunting, mule . Now its a two-week-long job. Area seven has a lot of public land. Tyler Sims Outfitting offers some of the best archery antelope hunts around. It screws up everything for everybody. The early hunt is 100% wilderness so a guide is needed. I think if the land owners would kill twenty cows or calves with public hunters they should be issued one general tag, kill the cows this year get extra tags next year 100. Please contact the developer of this form processor to improve this message. Or $16000. Ever wonder why their human population is so stagnant? Mule Deer Hunts. The ranchers and rich owners of ranches have been land locking public lands to build up herds to sell expensive hunts. There are no perfect reforms and the group is yet to recommend a strategy, Coursey said. That reform enjoyed unanimous support while it was being studied at the task-force level. Stay up to date with important news . The Wyoming wolf management plan is firmly in place after years of heated debate and is working nicely whereas Idaho, Montana and Wisconsin have serious problems. As a rancher or landowner, If you charge for elk hunting then dont complain! The Cross C Ranch is a family owned and operated outfit. Private Ranch Hunts. If you are interested in improving public access, please work with organizations that follow the well established practice of acquiring legal access across private land. It has not had a solution, but I hope this ruling changes it. PO Box 569 Sundance, WY 82729 (307) 283-3443 sevenj@collinscom.net. Today the northern herd is at a healthy sustainable consistent population of about 7500. Which would make the issue even worse as the elk wont migrate like they normally have in the last. Down Highway 94 south of Douglas toward diminutive Esterbrook, Dax McCarty manages the hunting operations on the massive Wagonhound Ranch, owned by investment banker Art Nicholas. Lets kill all the predators and then get subsidized for elk eating all the grass they want for cattle. Ranchers need to stop complaining about too many elk when they wont let public hunters onto their land to hunt. An example is the Park owned by the Texans in Muddy Mountain. It only takes a few to ruin it for the rest of us. You people are sick. Could wipe out a lot of animals. The native people of the Klamath, Modoc and Yahooskin eat and live off of elk and mule deer. People have got to quit thinking the way people thought in the early 1900s. While on a hunt with us you will be with an experienced professional guide who will work to make your Wyoming hunt one that will not be surpassed by any other, no matter the species. I remember in the mid-90s when mountain lions were out of control and how they just decimated the deer population. Wagonhounds outfitting business takes pride in its resident elk population, he said, but the emphasis is on the quality of the hunting experience, not the quantity. Shoshone Lodge Outfitters offers a great Wyoming cow elk hunt for any kind of hunter. Best meat in the world and the women would use the hide and Elk teeth, problem solved. This is how its done in the United states and in Wyoming. Please reload the page and try again. Montana, Idaho and WY wolves have proven to make the issue of elk harboring even worse. Feed your family, not their twisted view of their entitlement. Pitchfork ranch is another that head fee access, never heard anything bad about them either, and hunt oil company, dba hoodoo ranch, has 7 or 8 properties that they used to allow . We werent absolutely sure of the boundary and played it safe when we actually could have taken an elk. Box 1100 were fed up with the exclusive use of elk as a profit maker and fed up with your little buddy-buddy relationship with the outfitters. I suggest building an elk high fence, in small sections ariund the perimeter of ranches that dont want elk herds on their property. . How is my 74 year old father going to walk 10 miles into an area that he has hunted his entire life? Everything from invasive species (weeds) to fence repair etc. Oh waitthese people have killed most of their wolves and now they dont like the result. Yours is without a doubt the best! This swath of the Rockies eastern front reaches from Laramie to Casper, home to the Laramie Peak/Muddy Mountain Herd, which has averaged somewhere between double and triple Game and Fishs 5,000-elk objective. 100,000+ acre private Wyoming Ranch. 47 were here. Though anymore, people do not want to hunt areas that cannot be accessed with a ATV or UTV. From the quality and abundance of the game to the quality of all the Wagonhound employees that I met., Wagonhound Outfitters exceeded all of our expectations with their first-class accommodations, top-notch hospitality, and incredible quality of elk hunting. Josh Kirk. Please feel free to email our Guest Relations Department using this form for any questions you might have about booking a trip or the details of one of our many activities. Sometimes theyre very hard to find. And the food prepared by Doris was absolutely fabulous., I can not tell you what this trip meant to me. I think that the game and fish should assign over populated ranches to hunters. Or to many Cows? We know that as top-of-the-line hunting outfitters, your hunting experience will be unmatched when you harvest your animal while staying at the Queen Mountain Guest Ranch. The Lodge and Spa at Three Forks Ranch, Wyoming: See 64 traveler reviews, 56 candid photos, and great deals for The Lodge and Spa at Three Forks Ranch, ranked #1 of 2 specialty lodging in Wyoming and rated 5 of 5 at Tripadvisor. Managers also dramatically liberalized the seasons, letting hunters stay at it until the end of January. Bring the wolves back and after a few years the problem will resolve itself. Its a real burden for a small state like Wyoming to fund T&E management. Starting immediately, ban outfitting and no more wildlife deprivation checks. The area has over 2 million acres not including Craterlake National Park and the Klamath Wildlife Refuge which currently is being used for cattle grazing which in my opinion is not right. Of those, 36 were trophy bulls, 42 were smaller raghorn bulls and the balance were cows and calves. Someone isnt telling the truth. Guess that just seems like a logical way to handle things. Offering both archery and rifle hunts, you will see a lot of animals and have a great opportunity to bring home a trophy. Wyoming politics and their Good Old Boy mentality of everything for resident ranchers nd to hell with anyone else. We rely on readers like you to keep our reporters in the field unearthing the stories that matter to you. Please contact the developer of this form processor to improve this message. Also change age limits for hunting licenses costs for people over 65 with a drop in costs. In this video, I cover the Weatherby Mark V, Vortex Razor HD LHT, Spartan . I do not feel bad about the over population of elk and what the elk do to their hay fields. So, I just hunt in my own state. At todays prices many families could use the resource feeding there families. The server responded with {{status_text}} (code {{status_code}}). They didnt care about any of that, Grant said. Successful Hunts. 7) rancher cries out for damages, gets paid handsomely by game and fish I will say, I know a guy from Wisconsin who hunts the Area 7, and he says that the wolves back there have really thrown deer numbers down to the point where they are struggling to keep their numbers up, so I dont think wolves are the answer, it would be even harder to manage the wolf population than elk in my opinion. There were hundreds and hundreds of people coming in and out, and they did it dang near every day, McCarty said. $3,100. The mismanagement here in Colorado is destroying our elk and right to use our lands. These hunts are done on private ranches with great antelope populations. Area 7 has close to 5,000 resident applications for an any elk tag and just over a 1,000 issued a draw success rate of 20%. Our guides have led hunters to numerous Wyoming Outfitters and Guides Association awards for well over a decade. Many repeat hunters come back to our family-owned operation year after year because of the personal attention, high success and top-notch quality of our guided hunts for pronghorn antelope, mule deer, el . During your stay you will see hundreds of antelope. Your email address will not be published. Wagonhound Outfitters Its our sacred right to abuse the natural resources to extinction and then complain about it. One elk may feed a family for 6 months or so. The 18-member task force, appointed by leaders of the Legislature, governors office and Game and Fish, was devised to study and identify solutions to top-priority wildlife policy issues Wyoming faces concerning hunting opportunity and sportsperson access. Follow MYSTERY RANCH hunting ambassador, Jason Matzinger, on his latest elk hunt in Wyoming. We hunted Turtle Rock one day in 2020. They own the land and can literally set rules to govern public access. The Game and Fish would manage selections and the hunt. If I could place an order today, I would take 1000 head for southern Oregon, 500 cows, 200 yearlings and 300 bulls. We are having a hard time with the price of groceries. Remember, if the tract of tax payer funded public land doesnt touch a road, it cant be hunted. Cheyenne, Wy. Learn More{{/message}}. Wyoming is famous for clear skies, soaring mountains, and elk hunting in the cold autumn air. The outfitters should be letting hunters on to hunt the overpopulated elk herds. One two week after the end of rifle season. Stop giving out wildlife damage payments to landowners that dont allow public easement for hunting. Im hopeful one day that the management and landowners will explore and succeed in their wishes to help control what theyre making and living for cattle ranchers livelihood. Going for the same effect, workers once left out sacks of human hair gathered from the local barber shop. Medicine Bow, WY, 82329, Carbon County. The Ranch is a 20,000+ acre privately owned outfitting and cattle Ranch. Wolves are not the answer. The Solitude Ranch has a reputation of sending hunters home with a Pope & Young caliber Whitetail deer or Mule deer. He takes a two-week reprieve from ranching to outfit hunters each fall, but interest is limited and hes competing for oftentimes wealthy nonresident clients with more specialized outfitters like Wagonhounds Dax McCarty. Specializing in Archery Antelope: The Wyoming archery antelope hunts offer you 5 full hunting days. Aoudad. Thanks for the opportunity to speak. Ranchers will never go along with forced access to their private land. Get ahold of your priorities! Keep it clean, civil and on topic. Youre still not going to knock down the elk herd because theres no way for hunters to get in there and be effective.. Game and fish will increase landowner tags if Landowners let X amount of people per additional tag to hunt starting on November for cow/calf. Required fields are marked *. The ranch was originally founded by advertising executive Stanley B. Resor and his wife to be used as a . I always show respect for the land and the people. If the ranchers want to curb the elk problem, they can allow access. Perhaps ranchers shouldnt receive hay money from the state until a certain public access threshold is met. Cabelas Hunting Supplies & Equipment, 2023 Wagonhound Outfitters. If your not rich you wont hunt. Second, over the last 20 years a lot of the southern Laramie Range has been burned, Hensel, Arapahoe, Britania.and others. They are used to hunters on public lso they move to private when they are pressured. But none of this will be as benificial as Wolves. But it has probably opened up more grass for foraging. Two Dot Ranch-Cody, WY. The Hoodoo Ranch, located between Cody, Wyoming, and Yellowstone National Park, sits on the Greybull River and the South Fork of the Shoshone River. The property is spectacular, the hunting was incredible, the guides are experienced, skilled, extremely helpful, and friendly. DIY Unguided Elk Drop Camp. Private landowners such as in this case, are severely limited in their ability to control over grazing by the publicly owned elk because Game and Fish tightly controls the number of hunting licenses if Game and Fish would sell the landowners several hundred elk licenses per year and let the landowners bring in the hunters the elk population could be reduced. Our Location - RED HILLS RANCH PAINTS. The elk need to be treated with respect and taken humanly as possible. Im not any happier about this than they are, however this is what happens:/. Archery Antelope Hunts. Grey wolves will follow the food mostly on private ranches where oh by the way slow domestic cattle also reside which prey do you think the wolf will attack? More by Mike Koshmrl, Your email address will not be published. Wyoming Elk, Deer and Antelope hunting licenses are issued by the Wyoming Game and Fish Department via computer drawing. THE RULE OF THE THUMB IS . Cows equals five general tags witch should be worth a minimum,50,000 I really dont like the idea of privatizing our wildlife but this might be fair or least trying to do something!8. There have been many times when I politely ask the rancher that owns thousands of acres (private land) do you mind if I harvest a cow or rag horn for meat to feed my family. Every rancher says to me no. The elk stay in these tremendously large herds almost year-round. Instead they will harbor year round. Hunt. Cross C Ranch. We are supposed to evolve with nature not destroy it look at the world today what we have done. Im looking at this and thinking about what drove those animals to the ranches in the first place hunters. Ranch News; Contact; Subscribe. Wagonhound Outfitters offers elite trophy hunts in the heart of the Laramie Mountain range. This is a man-made problem. There are a number of things you can only see in Wyoming - Old Faithful, the Devil's Tower, Thermopolis's travertine terraces, to name a few. I realize that there are some big businesses that buy ranches and dont depend on livestock turning a profit, but thats not the case for all of them. The state and Wyoming game and fish should smarten up and not keep giving out money to these ranchers for fence destruction or hay loss. A cardinal rule of landscape scale ecology is every herbivore needs a complement carnivore(s). Wow, Sy, for a guy who profits off the back of the Wyoming taxpayer, that was a bizarre and laughable thing to say, but of course its all posturing for your rancher buddies. All of this paid by license sales in order to meet the demands of Threatened and Endangered species no tax payer funds are used for wolf and grizzly bear management. The Ranch is a 20,000+ acre privately owned outfitting and cattle Ranch. were fed up with your strangle hold on the Game and Fish dept. Since 1979, Rough Country Outfitters and Guides, LLC, has offered top quality, private ranch hunts for Wyoming's best big game trophies! Its real simple to look up, Simple Solution = ranchers, get your livestock off public land and we, the public will let our wildlife back on the public land. I love the people who have no clue and they say bring in the wolves. I have hunted in Wyoming a couple of times. That was 25 years ago. I have been a resident of wyoming the majority of my 57 years as a kid private ranchers would allow hunting, admittedly with issues of hunters disrespecting boundaries from time to time , but with that said I think the majority of hunters were appreciative of the opportunity to be able to enjoy the sport feed their familys and to help the rancher in many cases. Average antelope bucks typically score in the low to mid 70s with some measuring 80+ inches. 1,408 Acres. The Durham Ranch Trophy Bison Hunt full-package includes lodging on the ranch at the Rock House. P.O. Thanks for your support of WyoFile! Their exceptional work ethic, attention to . (Sarcasm), Hmm, get the $1.35 a month cow/calf off the public land and give it back to the wildlife. Great opportunity to hunt on the ranch with lots of elk and elk meat for the money: $3,000* 3: November - thru December: 2:1 . Bow hunting for Antelope starts in late August, deer and elk starts September 1st. It was the last of his ranch jobs. If you have too many Montana will take them since fishing game introduced the wolf to our state, now we hunt the last of the Mohicans. Sure, it would take time. This is a typical land owner complaining about a problem but not allowing access. There are so many ways the ranchers can keep their cattle safe with a little work not with a gun. !, Going into the season, I had 5 points in all of the western states for almost all species available I called Jeff Warren of The Huntin Fool and asked him if 5 points would get me a good tag. Yet their families, friends and public employed seem to be allowed in. This 35.42 Acre property in Wyoming has Amazing Views, Dirt Road Access and is only 1.5 miles from over 6,300 Acres of BLM Land. The Politicians of Wyoming and Wyoming G&F need to follow New Mexico, Colorado and other States which provide private landowner more land owner permits. Guided Hunts. I would pony up $7 for a 3 ft.wide crossing, either purchase or public easement, on that infinitely small piece of private land. Non-resident Wyoming antelope hunters can expect reasonably high probability of drawing a tag by applying for the special tag in the preference point or random draws, especially if you have any preference points for antelope. Cattle eat grass. The wildlife is owned by the people, yet the Outfitter gets to leverage both the wildlife and the Game & Fish in management and making available an inventory of animals. buffalo@vcn.com. Or not. We hunt creek bottoms, side draws, and the "Pine Ridge", an area with lots of pine trees and . Martin's Cove, located about 55 miles (89 kilometers) southwest of Casper, Wyoming, is the location where the Martin handcart company and the Hunt and Hodgett wagon companies sheltered while awaiting rescue in the fall of 1856. Spend money to move these herds into locations where wolves and any predators are starving!! West bought the Monster Lake Ranch, which . The option we should all push, that was not mentioned at all: Expand and increase funding to Access YES. I am sure families who need the meat to feed their families would help out. Elk herds bounce on and off Bonanders property, but he agreed with the assessment that his land also provides them a place of sanctuary. 8) the public has had enough of the welfare ranchers cries and games. Whoops! One hunt planning website geared toward public land hunters gave poor marks to ease of access in area seven and scored its room to breathe i.e., competition with other hunters just 10 out of 100. IF YOU DO DO IT, YOU WIN HANDS DOWN. We used to see these big groups when we had sever winters, droughts and fires. Grant of Turtle Rock Ranch, meanwhile, is doing what he can to withstand the routine tidal waves of elk damage on his familys 136-year-old cattle operation. Biggs was in his 60s then and went to work for Hunt. Complaining and criticizing landowners will accomplish nothing try the legal method. Permitted by the MBNF as an equal opportunity provider. Lots of misconceptions in these comments: Basically, the Outfitter is a store keeper, yet we the people supply the wildlife on the shelf almost for free and pitch in shelf stockers (the Game & Fish) to make sure the Outfitter is fully stocked. THE GAME IS SO FAR OUT OF REACH FOR THE AVERAGE HUNTERS AND OR DISABLED PEOPLE WHO WISH TO HUNT DEEP OFF THE ROADS THAT NEEDS MOBILE VEHICLES UTV,ATV PERMITS RATHER A RESIDENT OR NON-RESIDENT (TO GET NEAR A GOOD HUNTING LOCATION AND PARK TO WALK A SHORT DISTANCE) THIS CANT BE ESTABLISH WITH THE PRESENT VEHICLES USAGE TERMS OF STATE AND LOCAL OUTLINED FOR PUBLIC, STATE AND FEDERAL LANDS MANAGEMENTS AREAS TO GET TO MANY GAME AREAS. Bull Elk: 6-day hunt - $7,500 Bull Buck Combo: 6-day hunt - $9,000 Cow Elk: 4-day hunt- $3,500 Deer: 4 day hunt - $4,500 Combo: 4 day hunt - $5,500 (2 cow elk; 1 cow elk/1 deer)
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